Israel is not a liberal democracy

Part of the current Zionist propaganda is that Israel is a liberal democracy, sharing values with other liberal democracies in ‘the West’ and elsewhere. I dispute this claim, on the following grounds:

  1. Israel defines itself as a Jewish state. Liberal democracies belong collectively to all their citizens. They do not define themselves by their majority ethnic or religious group. The United Kingdom does not call itself an English state. Belgium does not call itself a Flemish state. South Africa does not call itself a Black African state.
  2. Israel registers a national/ethnic identity of all citizens, such as Jewish, Arab, Druze, etc, which is assigned by the Ministry of the Interior. There is no ‘Israeli’ national identity. When liberal democracies enquire into the ethnicity of citizens, they do so only for statistical purposes, and citizens choose their own ethnicity, or can refuse to answer.
  3. Israel has compulsory military service for all Jewish citizens (except married women). Liberal democracies do not discriminate between ethnic groups when recruiting for the armed services.
  4. Israel has no civil marriage. Some religious communities forbid inter-faith marriages, so such couples cannot marry in Israel. Individuals who have no religious faith, or a faith that is not recognised in Israel (e.g Buddhism), cannot marry in Israel. (Since 2010 ‘couplehood unions’ with some rights and responsibilities similar to marriage have become available for non-religious couples). Also, Jewish marriages follow Orthodox rules, giving problems to some couples from other streams of Judaism. Liberal democracies have civil marriage provisions to avoid religious domination and discrimination.
  5. Political parties which “act directly or indirectly against the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people” are not eligible to run in Knesset elections. It is illegal for parties to campaign for Israel to become a liberal  democracy (i.e one which is not religiously or ethnically defined), or to advocate a union between the two states of Israel and Palestine to form a single liberal democratic state.

Note. I do not criticise Israel for not being a liberal democracy.  It has a right to adopt any form of government it chooses (as long as it does not violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights). But I disapprove of the false claim being made by Zionist propagandists in order to curry favour with powerful states that are liberal democracies.

Update: 6 June 2014 There is an interesting article, related to point 2 above,  which discusses court rulings that have prevented Israeli citizens from being registered with an identity of ‘Israeli’ rather than ‘Jewish’ or ‘Arab’ etc. It also explains how these legalities are used in practice to discriminate against non-Jewish citizens.

Additional sources: Wikipedia pages Israeli Identity Card, Marriage in Israel.

Last revision: 6 June, 2014 | Shortlink:

About David Gerald Fincham

Retired academic scientist.
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  • Yishai_Kohen

    Look how many places have the cross as part of their flag:

    Discrimination! Bigotry! Shame!

    And I won’t even start with the Muslim countries and their symbols.

    Constitution of Palestine (2003)

    ARTICLE 4 1. Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect and sanctity of all other heavenly religions shall be maintained. 2. The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be the main source of legislation.

    And while they ***claim*** to want to be pluralistic, it is still a CAPITAL OFFENSE to even SELL land to a Jew.

    Islamic republic is the name given to several states in the Muslim world including the Islamic Republics of Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, and Mauritania.

    Syria is officially the Syrian Arab Republic.

    Egypt is officially the Arab Republic of Egypt.

    And on and on. Go whine to them about it.

    • Walk Tall Hang Loose

      The Islamic Republic of Iran does not claim to be a liberal democracy, it calls itself a religious democracy. I do not regard Syria, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Mauritania to be liberal democracies.

      I repeat, I do not criticise Israel for not being a liberal democracy. I criticise those propagandists who claim it is a liberal democracy, when it clearly is not.

      As for Palestine, it has as much right as Israel to choose its own form of government, as long as it does not violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

      By the way, it is not a capital offence in Palestine to sell land to a Jew. It is the opinion of one Muslim cleric that selling land to a Jew in the present circumstances would amount to treason, which is a capital offence. It has never been tested in court.

      • Yishai_Kohen

        Again, Israel is a democracy; the only one around here.

        “Palestine” doesn’t exist. They chose not to. They chose war instead. Oh well. That’s their choice.

        By the way, it IS a capital offense to sell land to a Jew; not just “the opinion of one Muslim cleric”, and has been this way all along:

        At least three men reputed to have sold land to Israelis were murdered in circumstances that strongly suggested official tolerance if not involvement in the killing. They were killed shortly after the PA announced in early May that it would seek the death penalty for Palestinians convicted of selling land to Jews, pursuant to Jordanian law, which remains in effect in the West Bank. Justice Minister Freih Abu Medein made inflammatory statements at the time that seemed to give a green light to violence against suspected land dealers. For example, after the May 9 murder of land dealer Farid Bashiti, Abu Medein told the press, “As I have said before, expect the unexpected for these matters because nobody from this moment will accept any traitor who sells his land to Israelis.” The PA made no arrests in any of the killings.

        Behind shuttered doors on an empty side street in East Jerusalem, the Bashiti family grieved alone today for the head of the household, Farid Bashiti, whose bludgeoned and bound body was found Friday in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

        There were no condolence callers coming to pay their respects, no Koran verses being read in memory of Mr. Bashiti, who in death was declared a pariah, accused of what the Palestinian Authority last week declared a capital crime — selling land to Jews.

        More than 115 other political detainees arrested in previous years remained in detention without charge or trial; some had no access to families or the outside world. They included Faruq Abu Hassan, detained incommunicado by the military intelligence (istikhbarat) in Gaza Central Prison since November 1994. Others detained throughout the year for political reasons included up to 100 people suspected of “collaboration” with Israel or selling land to Israelis, offences defined as treason.

        PA court: Sale of Palestinian land to Israelis is punishable by death

        Former Palestinian intelligence officer ‘sentenced to death for selling home to Jews’

        Selling land to Israel or Israelis is a capital offense, a Palestinian
        Authority court in the Jerusalem area ruled Thursday. The verdict
        overturned a lower court’s ruling that such a sale was a “minor crime.”

        According to the Ma’an news agency based in Bethlehem, Judge
        Ta’et At-Twil ruled that the act of selling or attempting to sell land
        to a foreign country was a criminal offense which could warrant the
        death penalty.

        A Prosecution statement said that the court issued the ruling as a
        consolidation of a previous legal principle, as per instructions it
        received from PA Attorney General Ahmad Al-Mughni.

        Want more?

        • Walk Tall Hang Loose

          It is possible, but not certain, that you are correct on this. I do not regard the Daily Mail or Jerusalem Post as reliable sources. The Wikipedia page ‘Palestinian Land Laws’ paints a very uncertain picture of what the law actually says. I do not have time to research this further. Let me just say this: I can understand why the PA regards this action as treasonous. I do not approve of the death penalty in any circumstances. I do not regard any state having the death penalty to be a liberal democracy.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            It’s an established fact, and disregarding sources without disproving the actual content of their facts/arguments is patently intellectually dishonest.

            “Understanding” doesn’t change facts or make it right. I understand why the southern states wanted slavery. I understand why there was opposition to school and other integration. I understand how some felt under attack with this and more; but that doesn’t make it right.

            By the way, Israel doesn’t really have the death penalty. The only time it was ever exercised was with Adolf Eichmann; more than 50 years ago.

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            I had always assumed that Israel did not have a death penalty.

          • Nick

            As YK says, Israel doesn’t really have the death penalty.

            However, it is the only country in the world to have legalised torture. Dozens of Palestinians are fraudulently tagged as “ticking time-bombs” (an almost impossibly rare occurence) and tortured.

            Israeli is also the only country in the world to torture, on a really big scale, children (naturally, I’m only talking about the children of the untermensch).

            Now, if these children were being killed and their organs used for transplant, any mention of it would amount to blood-libel (we know that such accusations are a feature of government announcements).

            And yet, when Israel is caught torturing children, it cocks a snook at the world and has carried on for, I think, 18 years so far.

            (And we’re all wrong anyway – while Israel doesn’t have the death penalty, it does have disappearances – two spies in Israeli prisons, 100s of Palestinian bodies never returned from the 1990s, 1000s or 10s of 1000s of bodies in mass graves that the relatives are denied access to – and it has some assassinations, including abroad, far more than Russia).

            I detect that you don’t really like me posting these things – would you rather they not be exposed?

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            “I detect that you don’t really like me posting these things – would you rather they not be exposed?”

            A question that is making me think. Please wait….

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            I get bored and depressed reading websites where the Zionists and their supporters talk all the time about how nasty the Arabs and Muslims and Iranians were and are. I have a similar reaction to websites where the Palestinians and their supporters talk all the time about how nasty the Zionists were and are.

            What I like is material that may help lead to a more peaceful future. Peace depends upon reconciliation, and reconciliation depends upon truth. Countering Zionist propaganda is an important contribution. Exposing the policies and behaviour of past and current governments of Israel towards the Palestinians is an important contribution. And of course it works both ways. Reminding us that there were in the past acts of international terrorism by Palestinians, and that these greatly harmed the Palestinian cause, is also an important contribution.

            What I do not think is helpful here, and at this time, is detailed discussion of individual historic events such as the Deir Yassin and Hebron massacres.

          • Nick

            Considering that Holocaust Denial and its condemnation is a central part of our culture (despite the fact that the Deniers have the same influence as the Flat Earthers) I’d have thought that reminding people of the still unpunished Deir Yassin Massacre (and its stealing by the perpetrators) was something that did need detailed discussion.

          • Nick

            As long as Israel invents and links to threatening organisations like the JNF, permanently barring the untermensch from lands that have been their homelands for at least 3000 years (ie longer than Jews have been monotheisitic) then Jews owning land will be seen as threatening.

            The answer to this unpleasant feature, just as the answer to so many other matters, is to stop threatening people.

        • Walk Tall Hang Loose

          You say “Palestine doesn’t exist”. Nonsense. Palestine has existed for 2000 years. Go the the web site of the Jewish National Library and search for ‘Palestina Moderna’ and you will find a map dating from 1480. (Hint,north is on the left). In 1922 Palestine became a defined political entity under the British Mandate. In 1948 when Israel declared independence on part of Palestine, the rest of the territory did not evaporate, it was still there and still called Palestine. In 1988 it was declared and recognised as a state. This is exactly the same process that created Israel in 1948. If Palestine is not a state, then neither is Israel. The only difference is that Palestine is not a sovereign independent state, because it is under military occupation by Israel. You don’t have an answer to that argument, do you?

          • Yishai_Kohen

            No country of “Palestine” has ever existed- and it doesn’t now. They chose war instead.

            They can call themselves a kangaroo, but it still won’t get them into the zoo for free.

          • Nick

            Palestine is a country declared Independent in 1988 and recognised by c.130 other countries – not far short of the number who recognise Israel (c.160)!

            Besides which, Palestine has existed as a geographical entity since Roman Times – and Napoleon thought of it that way in 1798, as shown in this map.

            If anyone was being jeered at for not being a proper nation, it would not be the Palestinians!

          • Yishai_Kohen

            I can declare myself a kangaroo, but that doesn’t make me one. Never in history was there a state of “Palestine”. There isn’t one now, and there never will be one either.

            That’s the reality on the ground.

          • Nick

            The reality on the ground is that the apartheid regime in Israel is going to come unglued – in fact, late 2013 could prove to be the time when Tzipi Livni and Abbas come out of sequestration and announce a one-state solution.

            After that will come the mass killings as Palestinians struggle for access to the courts and the return of their stolen property.

            But most white-skinned Jews will have left by then, they’ll go blubbing to AIPAC, which has promised to set them up in a nice new country. The going rate for their compensation may be $800,000 for a family of 4.

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            There was never a state of Israel until 1948. There is a state of Palestine, which is currently occupied by Israel. Fortunately, YOU do not control the future.

    • Nick

      Egypt indeed stamps their compulsory ID cards with the religion (or maybe “membership of a community”) of the bearer.

      However, Egypt does not appear to operate apartheid – the Coptic churches are probably rather well protected by the agents of the state (compare this with Israel, wherein 100s of mosques and dozens of churches have been bulldozed and not one Christian or Muslim holy site is registered for protection – while 137 Jewish ones are).

      I don’t have proof of my claim about Egypt’s official treatment of its minorities – I’m sure your presence here is to better inform us of such matters.

      But I note that the Ba’hais have (since 2006 when there were only 2000 of them?) been fighting to be registered in the name of their “religious community” instead of the space being left blank. I presume that, like the Christians and the Jews for 1400 years, registration as non-Muslim generally and currently provides cachet and even preference from the state.

      It is important to note that 50 years ago the Ba’hai faith was banned and followers persecuted – but then, Israel does something similar to Messianic Jews. Egypt is clearly ahead of Israel in some respects.

      • Yishai_Kohen
        • Nick

          PS – you did not deal with my contention that Egypt does not operate apartheid.

          You did not deal with my contention that minorities in Egypt (though obviously not protected very well) are considered a higher-caste.

          And you implied that, because Messianic Jews were not banned in Israel, therefore there is no comparison.

          Whereas Messianic Jews are treated disgustingly in Israel – this from the notoriously Zionist-dominated (and therefore understating criticism of Israel) Wonkypedia:

          Supreme Court Justice Menachem Elon [wrote] “In the last two thousand years of history … the Jewish people have decided that messianic Jews do not belong to the Jewish nation … and have no right to force themselves on it”.

          I understand that to mean that Messianic Jews are very restricted as to the land they may use in Israel and almost totally excluded from government jobs – am I right? More from the same place:

          … The International Religious Freedom Report 2008, released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor in the US states that discrimination against Messianic Jews in Israel is increasing. … dedicated to rooting out missionary activity in Israel, including the Messianic Jewish congregations. One tactic is to plaster posters asking Israelis to boycott shops where Messianic Jews are owners or employees; another is to report Messianic Jews to the Interior ministry, which is charged with enforcing an Israeli law forbidding proselytizing.[103] In another incident, the mayor of Or Yehuda, a suburb of Tel Aviv, held a public book-burning of literature passed out to Ethiopian immigrants.

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            “another is to report Messianic Jews to the Interior ministry, which is charged with enforcing an Israeli law forbidding proselytizing.”

            The reference in the Wiki Page is to a Haaretz page in Hebrew.

            The Religious Freedom Report says “Proselytizing is legal in the country; however, a 1977 law prohibits any person
            from offering material benefits as an inducement to conversion.”

            Are you able to clarify?

          • Nick

            I’m sorry, I don’t do secret languages!

            But browser Google Chrome does and tells me this:

            “How fighting organization “Yad L’Achim” Messianic Jews? Hint: all means are acceptable

            Orthodox organization “Yad L'” from “Messianic Jews” (who have accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah), which gathers information and passes it to the Ministry of the Interior. Ministry officials summoned them to clarify and make life hell bureaucratic. Alongside this there are incidents of harassment, spreading rumors and damage to businesses, such as in the case of Pearl Comforty woke up one morning and find this poster hanging outside her bakery.God does not allow? Yes.

            A random story down the page:

            … Barbara Ludwig, 33 year old student from Germany has found itself on the brink of expulsion from the country, after the Interior Ministry refused to issue her a visa type 2, that any foreign student must possess. Ministry explained the refusal by Ludwig, who studies degree in Jewish Studies at the Hebrew University, is a “missionary.” “Disturbing to think that people I do not even know me know that the Interior Ministry so much personal information,” she says. “Not just me, even my parents, who live in Germany.”

            Explanations, she wanted to convert to Judaism, Jewish lifestyle and the future raise her children as Jews – not in her favor. Hearing conducted in court last year illegal aliens be deported to Germany before she was asked about her lifestyle and belief:

            Court: I want to know once and for all – what is the true religion, Judaism or Christianity?

            Ludwig: I think the truth is God and not Judaism or Christianity.

            The Court: Christian idolatry?

            etc etc

          • Yishai_Kohen

            I didn’t deal with them because it’s simply a lie- and I proved that.

            Here’s the reality in the region:


            Minorities in Egypt had to be protected by the government, and there were numerous pogroms. For hundreds of years under Muslim rule, Christians were second-class citizens, who paid special taxes and had no access to political power.


            Messianics in Israel are a totally different story. Many have made aliyah under the law of return. It was only in the case of Brother Daniel that he was ruled to not be part of the nation of Israel, but messianics are full citizens with full rights. There is no governmental discrimination against them as a group or as individuals.

            Nope. Not the same thing.

          • Nick

            You seem to ignore the fact that European Jews abandoned Spain to become the Sephardim – they were safer amongst Muslims than amongst Christians.

            And I need you to prove what you claim about the Christians of Egypt being 2nd-class from credible sources. Again, I’m quite prepared to be convinced – in Palestine the Christians were the middle-class, in Egypt its obviously not the same. The Wonkypedia says “While Copts have cited instances of persecution throughout their history[citation needed], Human Rights Watch has noted “growing religious intolerance” and sectarian violence against Coptic Christians in recent years” which means that Egypt has become an increasingly nasty society under American imposed dictatorship. It is simply your xenophobia and Islamophobia to blame it on Islam. Did Jewish kapos persecute other Jews and non-Jews because of Judaism? Of course not (though one Jewish historian and one Jewish philosopher thought that Zionism led to it).

            Moreover, every “community” in these Middle Eastern societies looked after itself and raised special taxes, so your blanket claims are worthless and I can see that you go first to garbage Islamophobic “sources”.

            We can get back to Messianic Jews presently, I’ll get more sense and learn more from WOTL than I’d ever do from you.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            You clearly don’t know much about the Jews of Spain either and their origins. At least you’re consistent. Read up on their origins before continuing to embarrass yourself here.

            Of course, what happened hundreds of years ago isn’t germane here, but by the way, if you’re interested, read about the Almohades:


          • Nick

            I know that the Jews of Spain were forced to leave by the return of the Christians.

            I know that they could have moved elsewhere within Europe but in general they did not, they moved to Muslim countries where they were safer.

            However, I’m wrong about Maimonides, who I see was born in Córdoba, wandered (studied in?) Spain for 10 years and then wandered to (and studied in) Morocco until he settled in Egypt as court physician. He plainly was not a refugee.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Au contraire: Maimonides WAS a refugee- along with countless other Jews who were forced to flee Spain because of the Muslim Almohad persecutions.

            But again, that isn’t relevant to today.

        • Nick

          I don’t mind being totally wrong – maybe Egypt does operate a vicious form of apartheid.

          But sending me a bunch of links does not prove it – the Amnesty one only says that policing is abysmal in Egypt – Is there any other terrible result of an American supported dictatorship in charge for 30 years?

          “A restaurant owner told Amnesty International that on 20 March, at around 6pm, some 15 men carrying sticks entered his restaurant whilst clients were inside, ordering its closure. Larger groups of men waited outside, while others entered other Christian businesses on the street also ordering they shut.

          So the Muslim Brotherhood acts to peacefully close and protect Christian businesses rather than allowing them to be smashed up, as would otherwise have happened? The Muslim Brotherhood have no prisons, they can’t punish rioters, so totally unlike the police.

          How does Israel act when members of its own community are attacked or abducted? Much worse, look at the Fogel case, there were 5 weeks of beatings (including women and at least one girl) before the blame was fraudulently blamed on 2 youths who were, very mysteriously, not charged with terrorism.

          Amnesty again: “In 2013, Coptic Christian activists reported at least four attacks on Churches or affiliated buildings in addition to Wasta, taking place in the Governorates of Aswan, Beni Suef, Cairo, and Fayoum. The authorities’ response to the violence has been poor, at best. They have often favoured “reconciliation” over the prosecution of offenders as a way to address sectarian violence.

          That’s exactly the same as the Israeli authorities tell Christian victims of much bigger pogroms: From the Jewish Journal in 2005:

          Young Druse stoned their Christian neighbors, smashed and burned cars, burst into homes and vandalized them. … Noone died, but 11 people were injured … Many Christians left Mughar

          … Commissioner Dan Ronen, commander of the Israel Police’s northern command, told the Knesset Interior Committee on Tuesday that police were not at all responsible for the riots. “Police have no say in the matter,” he said. “Don’t expect police to solve all communal internal conflicts. This is the responsibility of the heads of the communities.” Gideon Ezra, Israel’s minister of internal security ,,, dismissed demands … to set up an inquiry commission into the way police handled the riots.

          Naturally, Muslims and Druze suffer much worse in the pogrom nation – this is YnetNews in 2010.

          “Four Muslims, Druze [IDF veteran] forced out of rented flat in Tel Aviv after neighbors, who say rabbi told them Arabs must leave, vandalize their home and threaten to attach explosives to their car.”

          Actually, Israel’s “capital” and only “secular” city, Tel Aviv has been operating brutal apartheid since it was built on stolen land in the 1930s:

  • Yishai_Kohen

    Constitutional Act of Denmark, 5 June 1953
    PART I

    § 4 The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and as such shall be supported by the State.


    § 6 The King shall be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.


    § 66 The constitution of the Established Church shall be laid down by statute.

    § 69 Rules for religious bodies dissenting from the Established Church shall be laid down by statute.,_5_June_1953

    Constitution of Norway

    Article 2

    …The Evangelical-Lutheran religion shall remain the official religion of the State. The inhabitants professing it are bound to bring up their children in the same.

    Article 4

    The King shall at all times profess the Evangelical-Lutheran religion, and uphold and protect the same.

    Constitution of the Republic of Iceland


    Article 62

    The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the State Church in Iceland and, as such, it shall be supported and protected by the State.

    Article 64

    …A person who is not a member of any religious association shall pay to the University of Iceland the dues that he would have had to pay to such an association, if he had been a member. This may be amended by law.


    The Church of England is the officially established Christian church in England…

    Constitution of Greece


    Relations of Church and State

    Article 3

    1. The prevailing religion in Greece is that of the Eastern Orthodox Church of Christ. The Orthodox Church of Greece, acknowledging our Lord Jesus Christ as its head, is inseparably united in doctrine with the Great Church of Christ in Constantinople and with every other Church of Christ of the same doctrine, observing unwaveringly, as they do, the holy apostolic and synodal canons and sacred traditions. It is autocephalous and is administered by the Holy Synod of serving Bishops and the Permanent Holy Synod originating thereof and assembled as specified by the Statutory Charter of the Church in compliance with the provisions of the Patriarchal Tome of June 29, 1850 and the Synodal Act of September 4, 1928.

    2. The ecclesiastical regime existing in certain districts of the State shall not be deemed contrary to the provisions of the preceding paragraph.

    3. The text of the Holy Scripture shall be maintained unaltered. Official translation of the text into any other form of language, without prior sanction by the Autocephalous Church of Greece and the Great Church of Christ in Constantinople, is prohibited.

    Constitution of Argentina


    First Chapter

    Declarations, Rights and Guarantees

    Section 2: The Federal Government supports the Roman Catholic Apostolic religion.

    Want more?

  • Yishai_Kohen

    This post of yours is so ridiculous, I don’t even know where to begin.


    2. In Belgium, Germany, and the Czech Republic (among others), they carry ID cards. I suppose you think they’re not liberal democracies. And I have never been asked for mine by any policeman,soldier,etc.

    3. Doesn’t have any practical meaning.

    4. Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Finland, Norway, and others also have conscription. I suppose you think they’re not liberal democracies.

    5. Marriage is a religious institution. This is how Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Druze Israelis view it. Were that not the case, it wouldn’t be so. And if you want a non-religious wedding, hop on a 30 minute plane ride to Cyprus and it will be recognized here.

    6. Ironically, the once political party- the party that brought the law into existence, was the Kach party, which wanted to expel all Arabs. And if al-Qaida wanted to establish itself as a political party in the US, do you think that it would be allowed?

    • Walk Tall Hang Loose

      1. I have no objection to a liberal democracy having an official state religion, providing there is no discrimination in law or practice against individuals of other religions or none. But Britain does not define itself as a Christian state any more than it defines itself as an English state. A liberal democracy belongs collectively to all its citizens.

      2. Requiring citizens to carry identity cards is an illiberal practice, since it facilitates state control over individual movements.

      3. The practical meaning is that it enables the Jewish state to know who the non-Jews are, thus enabling discrimination against them.

      4. In my view, conscription is a form of slavery. It is also very harmful to the morals of the state. May I quote Ben-Gurion “I am full of fear and dread of the militarization of the youth in our state. I already see it in the souls of the children, and I did not dream of such a people and I don’t want it.” It is disliked by the armed forces because in the modern battlefield they do not want cannon fodder, they want professional soldiers.

      I do not regard any state having conscription into the armed forces as liberal. Of the states that you mention, Denmark and Norway require only a small proportion of those eligible, making service in practice voluntary, so I exclude these. The others have alternative forms of civil service for those who reject militarism, and I regard these as less illiberal than other states who do not offer an alternative.

      5. Nonsense. Marriage is a religious institution to those who are religious, but not to those who are not religious. Even the Soviet Union with an atheistic ideology had the institution of marriage. The absence of civil marriage means religious domination and discrimination for many Israelis, not just the non-religious, and makes Israel not a liberal democracy.

      6. I am not talking about the exclusion of armed groups. I am talking about political groups who want to achieve change through peaceful and democratic means. For example, would a political party which advocated a union between Israel and Palestine to create a single, secular, liberal democracy be allowed to stand for the Knesset? If not, Israel is not a liberal democracy.

      • Nick

        The provision (and even more, the compulsory carrying) of ID cards is oppressive, but may be justifiable in particular circumstances. Most continental nations have them.

        What can never be justified is stamping people’s card “hated Juden” or “hated Muslim” – especially if the treatment accorded by officialdom (provision of schools and protection from crime) is different in the two groups (the very definition of apartheid, an International crime).

        Israel is in a bizarre position – it seems to have started off dividing people by ethnicity but now does so by religion – only those of “Jewish nationality” can rent any of the best land in Israel or get any worthwhile government job.

        In other words, uniquely in the world, citizenship is practically worthless, only “nationality” counts – but there is no Israeli nationality allowed!

        Oct 4, 2013 … Residents cannot identify themselves as Israelis in the national registry because the move could have far-reaching consequences for the country’s Jewish character, the Israeli Supreme Court wrote … response to a demand by 21 Israelis, most of whom are officially registered as Jews

        … In its 26-page ruling, the court explained that doing so would have “weighty implications” on the state of Israel and could pose a danger to Israel’s founding principle: to be a Jewish state for the Jewish people.

        The decision touches on a central debate in Israel, which considers itself both Jewish and democratic yet has struggled to balance both. The country has not officially recognized an Israeli nationality. (paywall) – (which is also the source of the picture below which I was unable to delete?! – please do so)

        I notice that Chris Berel ran away from this kind of discussion but he obviously called for help from an esteemed member of the Brahmin caste who, if he’s worth his hasbarist salary will now proceed to prove me wrong.

      • Yishai_Kohen

        1. And yet in the liberal democratic countries that I listed, I DID show that there is discrimination- as per their constitutions. You can’t be king if you are of a different religion, you have to pay special dues if you aren’t of the main religion, etc.

        2. Requiring citizens to carry identity cards is a common practice even in liberal democratic countries, as I have showed. It has no practical implications. And as I pointed out, nobody has ever asked to see my ID card in Israel. Nor does it limit any Israeli citizen’s freedom of movement.

        3. The same could be said for any picture ID. A Black person can be discriminated against by the same token in the US or any of the liberal democratic European countries. In fact, you don’t even need an ID card for that. Bottom line is that it has no practical implications here.

        4. Your view contradicts the many liberal democratic countries that do have a draft- and they do. It isn’t “militarism”. It’s self-defense. Go whine about Switzerland’s militarism.

        5. Again, the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Druze here disagree with you. It’s our right as a democratic country to decide.

        6. Kach wasn’t an armed group. It was a democratically-elected political party that wanted to achieve change through peaceful and democratic means.

        • Walk Tall Hang Loose

          1. Restrictions on the religion of the monarch violate his personal human rights, but do not make the democracy illiberal. The Scandinavian constitutions do not tax people who do not belong to the Established Church, read them again, carefully. Anyway, this is all a red-herring. I say that Israel’s declaration that it is a ‘Jewish State’ disquaIifies it from being a liberal democracy, because liberal states belong collectively to all their citizens. You have no answer to this argument.

          2/3. I would like to hear from some non-Jewish citizens of Israel before I accept that having a registered non-Jewish identity has no practical implications.

          4. “It’s self-defence.” No it isn’t. For effective self-defence, you need professional servicemen. It is the exertion of state control over its citizens. It is a form of slavery. No state practicing it deserves to be called a liberal democracy. You have no answer to this argument.

          5. Yes, it is Israel’s democratic right to decide its own marriage laws. But the failure to provide for civil marriage imposes religious discrimination and domination over its citizens, and disqualifies it from being a liberal democracy. You have no answer to this argument.

          6. I wasn’t talking about Kach. I was talking about your example of Al-Quaeda standing for election in the USA. You haven’t answered my question. Would a political party which advocated a union between Israel and Palestine to create a single, secular, liberal democracy be allowed to stand for the Knesset? If not, Israel is not a liberal democracy.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            1. Au contraire. By virtue of the fact that these institutions and restrictions do exist, it is patently discrimination against any and all who are not of the established church. And again, in Iceland, the language is clear:

            Article 64

            …A person who is not a member of any religious association shall
            pay to the University of Iceland the dues that he would have had to pay to such an association, if he had been a member.

            Israel is no less a liberal democracy, and in fact, here, anyone of any religious (or secular) persuasion CAN achieve any position in the country- democratically; as opposed to those European liberal democracies with a monarchy.

            2/3. And yet you insist on tossing around accusations which you yourself admit are unsubstantiated.

            4. Ah! So the US armed forces until 1973- and all others that had- and have, a draft didn’t do so for self-defense! How does that work?

            And even now, the Selective Service System remains in place as a contingency plan; men between the ages of 18 and 25 are required to register so that a draft can be readily resumed if needed.


            And again, many liberal democratic European countries have a MANDATORY draft. For instance, Switzerland has mandatory military service in the Swiss Army for all able-bodied male citizens, who are conscripted when they reach the age of majority:


            By the way, you clearly don’t know what “effective self-defense” is. Ask a soldier- or anyone who has ever been effectively protected by one.

            5. Again, the democratic will of each and all of the religious groups here is that marriage remain religious in nature. If that changes- and it might, it will be because it is the will of the people; the majority.

            6. I was talking about Kach. Again, they were THE reason why that law was passed- and the only political party to ever be banned here.

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            1. I note again that you have no answer to my argument about the ‘Jewish State’ concept.

            Again you try to divert attention away from Israel to another country. The constitution of Iceland is clear, and does not say what you claim. In Iceland, everyone pays the church tax, either to ANY religious association with which they identify, or to the University of Iceland. There is no discrimination in favour of the established church. If there were such religious discrimination, Iceland would not be a liberal democracy.

            By the way, I do not approve of the church tax, I consider it un-Christian. In most Christian churches donations are voluntary and the amounts private. Nor do I approve of the Monarch and his spouses being forced to adhere to a particular religion. But that effects a very small number of individuals, and does not invalidate the liberal nature of the democracy as a whole.

            “here, anyone of any religious (or secular) persuasion CAN achieve any position in the country”. This is a question for information. Has any non-Jewish person ever been a government minister? If not, is there anything in the electoral system that forbids it, or that makes it impossible in practice?

            2/3. I haven’t made any accusations. I have no idea what you are talking about.

            4. The armed forces of the United States have never been used to defend the United States since Pearl Harbour, I believe, or at least since the end of World War 2. The United States is a very long way from being a liberal democracy, further in fact than Israel.

            The Swiss army does not have compulsory military service, because there is an option of civilian service, as in Austria and Finland. I still regard such compulsory service as an illiberal policy, but accept that others may not agree with me.

            Ask army officers whether they want conscription, and they say no, for many reasons. Unwilling soldiers make bad soldiers; the modern battle field is complex, technological, evolving, and very highly stressful, and only a small proportion of the population are suitable for the work; the appropriate level of skills can only be maintained by continuous training. Soldiering is not an amateur or part-time occupation. The British Army when recruiting uses the slogan ‘Join The Professionals’.

            5. The introduction of civil marriage would pose no threat to the religious nature of marriage for those who choose it. But it would remove discrimination against, not only non-religious people, but also against people who belong to one of the non-recognised religions, or those who belong to one of the non-Orthodox branches of Judaism.

            Has there ever been a referendum of ALL citizens asking them whether they would approve the introduction of a civil marriage option? If they said no, that would be a democratic choice. BUT, the ability of the majority to impose their will on a minority on a personal matter like religion and marriage is the very definition of an illiberal democracy.

            6. You haven’t answered my question. Would a political party which advocated a union between Israel and Palestine to create a single, secular, liberal democracy be allowed to stand for the Knesset? If not, Israel is not a liberal democracy.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            1. Note all you want. It’s still a red herring. Sweden is the state of the Swedish nation. China is the state of the Chinese nation. France is the French nation, and Israel is the state of the nation of Israel. It’s really quite simple. Many nations have a state. We’re no different.

            The constitution of Iceland is clear- and by virtue of the fact that it segregates people, is anything but liberal. Those of the church MUST pay the church tax anyway, and all others MUST pay the university tax. And what if a Muslim citizen wants to pay it to the mosque instead? What if a Jewish citizen wants it for his synagogue, etc.? That is against the Constitution.

            In terms of non-Jewish Israeli Ministers, Salah Tarif (MK from 1992-2006 was appointed by Ariel Sharon in 2001, and and Majalli Wahabi even briefly assumed the position of President due to President Moshe Katzav’s leave of absence. There is no law- or practice, that stands in anyone’s way (unlike in the “liberal democracies I listed above where one cannot become king without being of the established church). There are non-Jews in Knesset, in high military positions, on the Supreme Court, and everywhere else- which you would know if you actually read before posting.

            In fact, In January 2004, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared that every state-run company must have at least one Arab citizen of Israel on its board of directors, which is reverse-discrimination, and In 2007, Ra’adi Sfori was elected as a JNF (Jewish National Fund) director.

            2/3. These points exist BECAUSE you made accusations- above in your original post.

            4. The bottom line is that Switzerland, which hasn’t been forced to fight a war in hundreds of years, DOES have mandatory conscription, and almost all of those conscripted go to the military. In Israel, conscription rates are only at around 50% of our citizenry. Arabs are exempt if they want, and others get out for other reasons. My daughter isn’t in the army. She’s doing National Service.

            Ask army officers here if they want conscription and way over 90% say yes. This is one reason why our army is so good; because the system doesn’t force only the under-educated and underprivileged to serve.

            5. Again, when the majority decide that they want “civil” marriages, it will be enacted via the democratically elected Knesset.

            There are no referendums here on ANY issues- just like in other Western countries- including the US. Starting with them just leads to chaos, because there’s no end to what can be demanded come to one.

            6. I did answer your question: Just as Kach was banned because, as the claim went, it didn’t recognize Israel as a Jewish democratic state (an arguable point), so too would any other party- whatever they advocate. That’s how Israel remains the liberal democracy that it is.

            In fact, this is what the ersatz “Palestinians” think- from a Pew poll taken not long ago. How liberal and democratic!

            89% of “Palestinians” want Sharia (Islamic law) to be “the official law of the land” (p. 9)

            40% of “Palestinians” support suicide bombings or other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam (Pp. 10, 70)

            48% of “Palestinians” see polygamy as morally acceptable (p. 11)

            51% of “Palestinians” believe that there is only one correct interpretation of Sharia (p. 44)

            95% of “Palestinians” who pray several times a day and 68% who pray less often believe that Sharia should be the law of the land (p. 47)

            44% of “Palestinians” believe that Sharia must be enforced upon non-Muslims as well (p.48)

            76% of “Palestinians” who say Sharia should be the law of the land, favor corporal punishment, like cutting off hands for theft, etc. (p.52)

            84% of “Palestinians” who say Sharia should be the law of the land, favor stoning as a punishment for adultery (p.54)

            66% of “Palestinians” who say Sharia should be the law of the land, support the death penalty for one leaving Islam (p. 55)

            40% of “Palestinians” prefer a strong leader over democracy (p. 60)

            72% of “Palestinians” believe that religious leaders should have either a large influence or some influence in politics (p. 64)

            65% of “Palestinians say that religious parties are either better or the same as secular parties. Only 29% say that they are worse (p. 66)

            92% of “Palestinians” say that drinking alcohol is immoral (p. 76)

            87% of “Palestinians” say that a woman must always obey her husband (p. 93)

            33% of “Palestinians” say that a woman should be able to divorce her husband (p. 94)

            43% of “Palestinians” say that sons and daughters should have equal inheritence rights (p. 95)

            44% of “Palestinian” males believe that it is a woman’s right to decide whether to wear a veil (p. 97)

            89% of “Palestinians” believe that only Islam leads to salvation (p. 110)

            82% of “Palestinians” belive that it is a religious duty to convert others to Islam (p. 112)


          • Nick

            If Israel was a state it would have borders and stick within them.

            Israel is not a state that has an army – its an army that has a state.

            And it has no intention of staying within any borders – this map comes from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

            Now, an individual Moroccan once boasted to me of wanting the whole of North Africa back and I’m sure they there are idiots like that in Egypt as well – but their government never posted anything so outrageously inflammatory and aggressive as this picture!

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Israel IS a state. That’s why we have all of the trappings of statehood. And the state has an army- under the orders of the democratically-elected government of the State of Israel.

            That picture was historical. I’m sure you don’t know what that means. You evidently can’t read either because they even state that in the picture.

          • Nick

            So where are the borders of Israel?

            Why is it that Chris Berel has flat out refused to tell me?

            Answer, you know and I know that Israel is far outside them, rules entirely by the gun and wants at least half of the Middle East.

            This is Kissinger speaking (or it might be him, anyway):

            … We told the military that we would have to take over seven Middle Eastern countries for their resources and they have nearly completed their job. … It is just that last stepping stone, i.e. Iran which will really tip the balance. … The great Russian bear and Chinese sickle will be roused from their slumber and this is when Israel will have to fight with all its might and weapons to kill as many Arabs as it can. Hopefully if all goes well, half the Middle East will be Israeli.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Our borders with Jordan and Egypt are established and set by treaty, our border with Syria is set by ceasefire and annexation, and our border with Lebanon is set by the Blue Line.

            It’s really quite simple.

            Did Kissinger really say that? When and where- exactly? And even if so, who cares? He has nothing to do with Israel.

          • Nick

            No, Kissinger didn’t say that. But he very well might have done.

            Your claimed annexations are completely illegal, failing on both counts, no consent from the people or the neighbouring nations.

            And you don’t respect any of those borders anyway – despite having begged to join the dispute resolution of the UN, you don’t abide by any of the mechanisms you said that you would.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Oh, he might well have. You really do like to make things up.

            Our annexations are reality. Get used to it.

            As to respecting borders, they chose war. They didn’t respect borders.

            And they paid the price.

            Oh well.

          • Nick

            The annexations claimed by Israel have no validity whatsoever.

            Making Israel a rogue nation like no other on earth.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Of course they have validity. WE decide; not anyone else.

          • Nick

            You’re acting deluded – the stolen land of Syria does not belong to you and never will do.

            In fact, the 93% of Israeli land that is stolen will never belong to you either!

          • Yishai_Kohen

            No “stolen” land here at all. THEY never recognized any border, chose war, and lost. Same with other Arabs.

            Oh well. Bad choices lead to bad results.

          • Nick

            The British did lots of terrible things in Palestine.

            But before they abandoned it to be your Lebensraum, they did do one thing right, they surveyed it.

            That’s how we know that at least 93% of Israel is stolen land.

            Meanwhile, Jewish people/heirs who were robbed in Poland have either taken advantage of, or invented, the same principle that must apply to the Palestinians – their property rights are not extinguished by men with guns.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            The Arab riots weren’t the fault of the British- although their light treatment of the terrorists was. The Arab riots were the fault of the Arabs who rioted- again and again.

            And again, OUR tiny land is just 1/10th of 1% of the Middle East, and we’re perfectly happy with it. It sure is a pity that the Arabs can’t even “make do” with the 99.9% that they occupy. For them, no Lebensraum is enough for them.

            We know that the Arabs chose war instead of a state and peace time and again. We know that many sided with Nazi Germany. And still you support them.

            I understand.

            But we won’t tolerate that here in OUR land.

          • Nick

            Again, OUR tiny land

            Not your land.

            You had the chance, and all the goodwill in the world, to have a “homeland” (as you insisted was all you wanted).

            But you went rogue, beating robbing and killing people from $1 trillion-worth of other people’s land.

            Born with a bang, dying with a whimper, as the Zionists flee the place they made into a hell.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            OUR land. Wehave OUR land.

            The would-have-been “Palestinians” had MANY chances to have part, but they chose war instead.

            Oh well. That’s their choice. Nothing for them here in OUR land now- or ever.

            We have been around for thousands of years. Lots of nations have said they would destroy us- and have tried. My kids read all about them in history class.

          • Nick

            You’re running away from what you call “your land”.

            Holes are being punched in the wall in Northern Israel and (so far, only a few of) the people are quietly going back to their homes.

            Meanwhile, people who claim to have bought property on the West Bank are discovering its impossible to sell. Everyone knows that its stolen.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            LOL! Enjoy this one:


            I live in Judea and Samaria- what you called the “West Bank”. Our population is growing faster than any other; nearly 5% a year.




            I could sell my house today if I wanted. There would be a line to buy. But I won’t. Ever.

          • Nick

            Why would I believe articles that tell me that “Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria since Biblical times, around 3,500 years” when its clear that 99.5% of the Jews of 2000 years ago converted to Christianity and then most converted to Islam?

            Especially from people who are doing exactly the same as gun-toting Germans crossing into Poland and taking people’s homes and lands!

            At least the Germans had an excuse, most of the land had indeed been Germany until less than 20 years before!

            Not a 2000 year old claim that’s based on a fraud!

          • Yishai_Kohen

            You don’t have to “believe”. It’s an established fact.

            Well, obviously Jews lived here during Biblical times. We all know that.

            If you look at the documents from the Cairo Geniza, dating back to the 9th century, you’ll find that there were Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

            If you look at travelers’ accounts from the Early Middle Ages, such as Nahmanides, Benjamin of Tudela, and a host of others, you’ll find that there were Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

            Rabbi Jechiel Ashkenazi, who was actually Sepharadi, purchased the Karite synagogue of Hebron in 1540 on behalf of the Sepharadi congregants.

            If you read about Shabtai Tzvi, the false messiah of the 16th century, you’ll find that his “prophet” was Nathan of Gaza, where the center of his movement was located for a period.

            In 1834, Hebron was taken by storm by Abraim Pasha, and given up to his soldiers for several days. Most of the Muslims fled to the surrounding hills, but the Jews couldn’t, and since they weren’t involved in any of the political feuds, they weren’t particularly worried (since they wouldn’t be viewed as rebels). When Abraim went to take Hebron, a petition was presented to him by the officers of the Jewish congregation in Jerusalem to protect the Jewish inhabitants of Hebron, which he promised to do; but still, five Jews were deliberately murdered, and all of their property that hadn’t been hidden was either stolen or destroyed. Only then, did Abraim place a guard around their quarter of the town, but it was too late. He wasn’t going to try and force his soldiers to give back the stolen booty. The Hebron Jewish community was impoverished- but they were still in Hebron.

            In 1845, Dr. Ernst-Gustav Schultz, the Prussian Consul in Jerusalem, discussed the Jews living in Shechem (Nablus) and Hebron in his book, “Jerusalem, Eine Vorlesung”.

            In fact, except for the periods of 1929-1931 and 1936-1968, there has been a significant Jewish presence in Hebron SINCE BIBLICAL TIMES.

            The ONLY period of time where there were no Jews in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza was between 1948-1967, when the Arabs ethnically-cleansed us from here.

            Now we’re back home again, where we ALWAYS were- FOR GOOD- BY RIGHT.

          • Nick

            So where did these Jews worship? There is no record of there being any synagogues whatsoever (other than the Karaites, heretics and near Christians, condemned as non-Jewish then and condemned the same now) after about 700 CE until, as you point out, fresh ones arrived in 1500 CE.

          • Nick

            Too bad that the real figures are a state secret – and Israel has a hideous reputation for lying and covering up.

            Where are the real gun-camera pictures of the attack on the USS Liberty?

            How did Israel come to use a photo stolen from the US Navy, and then air-brush it?

            People this dishonest won’t be believed this time either!

          • Nick

            No, its not your land.

            And your argument claiming it is the same as a Nazi who says that Jews don’t belong on German land.

            But at least the Nazis had an excuse, the Zionists told them that Jews could never be Germans.

            What’s your excuse for robbing the Palestinians?

          • Nick

            What you mean is, you’re not bound by your promises and you’re not bound by the conditions under which you were granted a homeland (or the state as you’d promised you weren’t interested in).

            You’re also not bound by the UN Charter you begged to sign, or the World Court as you swore you wished to settle all disputes you had with neighbours.

            Nor will you speak the truth – resurrecting lies about the ethnic cleansing (from terrorists like Schechtman and Schmuel Katz) which even your own right-wing historians have abandoned.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            No promises except that because they chose war instead of peace- and didn’t recognize our right to exist, that they pay the price.

            They violently disregarded the UN Charter and tried to ethnically cleanse us. In fact, they did from many places.

            I do promise that we won’t tolerate that; not here in OUR land.

          • Nick

            It must be an Israeli thing, lie and cheat and threaten and blame others for your racism.

          • Nick

            There were no Arab riots in 1920, a Muslim/Christian pilgrimage was blocked from passing along its traditional route and the Zionists (crying “The Wall is Ours”) threw a bomb at it.

            The attack on it was organised by Jabotinsky, a ferocious Okrahna operative who was jailed for 15 years for it by the army in charge – and then immediately released by the Zionist High Commissioner.

            That’s what the Palin Report said – which is why it was suppressed at the time and has never been published since.

            As I said, the British did lots of terrible things in Palestine.

            But they did do one thing right, they surveyed the land ownership of Palestine in 1943 (5.4% Jewish owned) and 1946 (6.8% Jewish owned).

            So 93% of Israel (at least) is stolen and must be given back to its rightful owners.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            There were Arab riots in 1920, 1921, 1929, and 1936. Of course, it was nothing new:

            1517: Safed pogrom: After having murdered the Ottoman governor, the mob turned upon the Jews and rampaged through the Jewish quarter. Many Jews were killed while others were wounded or had their property pillaged. According to one contemporary source, the Jews were “evicted from their homes, robbed and plundered, and they fled naked to the villages without any provisions.” Many subsequently fled the city.


            1834: Jews (and Christians) massacred by Muslims in Jerusalem, Safed, and Hebron. See:




            1857: Herman Melville writes of his visit to the Holy Land:

            …Rode from Ramlah to Lydda. A robbery of a village near by, by party of Arabs, alarms the whole country. People travel in bands. We rode to Lydda in train of the Governor’s son. A mounted escort of some 30 men, all armed….

            …The Jews dare not live outside walled towns or villages for fear of the malicious persecution of the Arabs & Turks….

            – The Journals of Herman Melville (January, 1857)


            1920 Arab Riots: There’s what happened in Jerusalem:

            By 10:30 a.m. on April 4, 1920, 60,000–70,000 Arabs had already congregated in the city square, and groups of them had already been attacking Jews in the Old City’s alleys for over an hour; the Jews hid. Inflammatory anti-Zionist rhetoric was being delivered from the balcony of the Arab Club. One inciter was Hajj Amin al-Husayni; his uncle, the mayor, spoke from the municipal building’s balcony.

            The editor of the newspaper Suriya al-Janubia (Southern Syria), Aref al-Aref, delivered his speech on horseback. The crowd shouted “Independence! Independence!” and “Palestine is our land, the Jews are our dogs!” Arab police joined in applause, and violence started. The Arab local population ransacked the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem. The Torath Chaim Yeshiva was raided, and Torah scrolls were torn and thrown on the floor, and the building then set alight. During the next three hours, 160 Jews were wounded other than an unknown number of Arabs.

            Khalil al-Sakakini witnessed the eruption of violence in the Old City:

            “[A] riot broke out, the people began to run about and stones were thrown at the Jews. The shops were closed and there were screams… I saw a Zionist soldier covered in dust and blood… Afterwards, I saw one Hebronite approach a Jewish shoeshine boy, who hid behind a sack in one of the wall’s comers next to Jaffa Gate, and take his box and beat him over the head. He screamed and began to run, his head bleeding and the Hebronite left him and returned to the procession… The riot reached its zenith. All shouted, “Muhammad’s religion was born with the sword”… I immediately walked to the municipal garden… my soul is nauseated and depressed by the madness of humankind.”


          • Nick

            I think its an Israeli thing to lie and deny and coverup their own atrocities while lying about the ones they suffer themselves.

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            The caption is a lie. The West Bank is shown as part of Israel. It is not. It is outside both the legal border of Israel and the 1949 Armistice Line.

          • Nick

            Are you getting any answers to your questions?

            I wonder why not?

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose


            “Israel is the state of the nation of Israel.” !?!?!?!?

            The whole point is that the State of Israel says there is no Israeli nationality. The state assigns a nationality to individuals that is either Jewish or one of a limited number of other recognised nationalities. Liberal democracies belong collectively to all their citizens. This is why Britain does not call itself an English state, Belgium does not call itself a Flemish state, and South Africa does not call itself a Black African state. Israel calls itself a Jewish state, and is therefore NOT a liberal democracy.

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            Since you can only name 1 non-Jewish government minister in the 60+ year history of Israel, and given that around 20% of Israeli citizens are non-Jewish, I conclude that the Israeli political system does not, in practice, produce a representative government, and that therefore Israel is not a true democracy.

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            Many Western countries have referendums. For example, Britain, Ireland and France and several other European states have all had referendums on various EU treaties. In fact, it is a normal practice in liberal democracies to have a referendum on any constitutional change. The United States is an exception. In Israel there is no constitution (despite the Declaration of Establishment promising one within months), and changes in the Basic Law are therefore entirely in the hands of the legislature – yet another example of the ‘tyranny of the majority’ that invalidates Israel’s status as a liberal democracy.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Here are your liberal democracies:

            Fear of wearing a kippah and other identifiably Jewish items was especially strong in Sweden, where 49 percent of 800 respondents said they refrained from such actions, in a survey conducted this year among more than 5,100 Jews by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights.

            In France, 40 percent of approximately 1,200 Jews said they avoided wearing such items in public, followed by Belgium with 36 percent, according to preliminary results from the survey, obtained by JTA.

            In total, 22 percent of respondents said they avoided “Jewish events or sites” because of safety concerns.

            “The results show that a majority of European Jews are experiencing a rise in anti-Semitism,” Gert Weisskirchen, a former representative of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe for fighting anti-Semitism, said Tuesday at a conference in Kiev.

            … In Hungary, 91 percent of more than 500 respondents said anti-Semitism has increased in the past five years. That figure was 88 percent in France; 87 percent in Belgium and 80 percent in Sweden. In Germany, Italy and Britain, some 60 percent of respondents identified a growth in anti-Semitism, compared to 39 percent in Latvia.

            Figures for people who said they had experienced an anti-Semitic incident in the 12 previous months were 30 percent for Hungary; 21 percent for France and 16 percent in Germany.


          • Nick

            Maybe the Swedish and the French are like me and hate seeing any “religious” dress. (Increasingly, it’s being outlawed in public, in France and elsewhere).

            However, even if you claim that its antisemitic in origin, almost all of the blame is down to people like you who, whenever there is any allegation of atrocity against Israel (whether genuine or not) jump up and down and cry “Blame the Jews, Blame the Jews”!

            Israel goes further and hires native Jews to bomb other Jews (along with, that we actually know for sure, UK and US facilities).

            That’s much, much more unpleasant and deadly and even (with only one exception) very much more dangerous than anything ever to have come from any individual Muslim or terrorist group!

            What name would we give to people like you who quite obviously wish hatred of (and presumably violence towards) Jews?

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Face it. YOU are the bigot.

            And it is anti-Semitic; much of which is committed by Muslims who ironically left their countries of origin ostensibly for freedom.

            Of course, Islam doesn’t believe in freedom.

            As to your whacky claim about bombs, etc., it’s not even worth the time to refute. It’s simply a lie.

          • Nick

            Ask any Iraqi Jew in Israel and they’ll tell you that the bombs that led them to panic were thrown by Zionists.

            Same in Cairo and Alexandria in 1954, even Israel finally admitted what they’d done in 2005.

            Bombs were almost certainly taken to Hebron in 1929 but we don’t know if any were let off, and Slonim probably refused to have them in a sacred Jewish building.

            Then check Israeli sources who will tell you that there were 1,500 caches of arms in Israel ready for the British to leave and the fun to begin.

            Synagogues were a favourite hiding place (there were even two caches in an East Jerusalem synagogue later destroyed – I wonder why that was?) but nurseries were also used.

          • Yishai_Kohen

            I never heard that nonsense from any Iraqi Jew, and I have many such neighbors. Same with Egyptian Jews.

            All were persecuted and fled to freedom in Israel.

            There were no bombs in Hebron in 1929; just an Arab massacre of innocent, peaceful Jews and subsequent ethnic cleansing of the entire Jewish community. From a memorandum presented to the British High Commissioner by Hebron’s community:

            “…the rabbis, Meir Kastel, 68 years old, and Tzvi Drabkin, 70 years old, and five other young men… were robbed, castrated, tortured and murdered… The baker, Noah Immerman was roasted alive on an oven, Rabbi Ya’akov Orlanski HaCohen… was found… praying… they took his brain from his skull and his wife’s intestines were crushed… the pharmacist, Ben-Tzion Gershon, lame, unable to move, who served in Hebron for 40 years, kindly assisting many Arabs, they cut off his nose and fingers, killed him, raped his daughter and murdered her with awful torture. The teacher Dubkinov and Yitzhak Abushdid were strangled with a rope… six synagogues… including 64 Torah scrolls, many of them ancient, from the Spanish exile, all were stolen and desecrated….”


            It was nothing new:

            1517: Safed pogrom: After having murdered the Ottoman governor, the mob turned upon the Jews and rampaged through the Jewish quarter. Many Jews were killed while others were wounded or had their property pillaged. According to one contemporary source, the Jews were “evicted from their homes, robbed and plundered, and they fled naked to the villages without any provisions.” Many subsequently fled the city.


            1834: Jews (and Christians) massacred by Muslims in Jerusalem, Safed, and Hebron. See:




            1857: Herman Melville writes of his visit to the Holy Land:

            …Rode from Ramlah to Lydda. A robbery of a village near by, by party of Arabs, alarms the whole country. People travel in bands. We rode to Lydda in train of the Governor’s son. A mounted escort of some 30 men, all armed….

            …The Jews dare not live outside walled towns or villages for fear of the malicious persecution of the Arabs & Turks….

            – The Journals of Herman Melville (January, 1857)


            1920 Arab Riots: There’s what happened in Jerusalem:

            By 10:30 a.m. on April 4, 1920, 60,000–70,000 Arabs had already congregated in the city square, and groups of them had already been attacking Jews in the Old City’s alleys for over an hour; the Jews hid. Inflammatory anti-Zionist rhetoric was being delivered from the balcony of the Arab Club. One inciter was Hajj Amin al-Husayni; his uncle, the mayor, spoke from the municipal building’s balcony.

            The editor of the newspaper Suriya al-Janubia (Southern Syria), Aref al-Aref, delivered his speech on horseback. The crowd shouted “Independence! Independence!” and “Palestine is our land, the Jews are our dogs!” Arab police joined in applause, and violence started. The Arab local population ransacked the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem. The Torath Chaim Yeshiva was raided, and Torah scrolls were torn and thrown on the floor, and the building then set alight. During the next three hours, 160 Jews were wounded other than an unknown number of Arabs.

            Khalil al-Sakakini witnessed the eruption of violence in the Old City:

            “[A] riot broke out, the people began to run about and stones were thrown at the Jews. The shops were closed and there were screams… I saw a Zionist soldier covered in dust and blood… Afterwards, I saw one Hebronite approach a Jewish shoeshine boy, who hid behind a sack in one of the wall’s comers next to Jaffa Gate, and take his box and beat him over the head. He screamed and began to run, his head bleeding and the Hebronite left him and returned to the procession… The riot reached its zenith. All shouted, “Muhammad’s religion was born with the sword”… I immediately walked to the municipal garden… my soul is nauseated and depressed by the madness of humankind.”


          • Nick

            The Iraqi Jews of Israel seem (or seemed) to be pretty unanimous that the bombings were carried out by the Zionists. In fact, in any normal sense, this would be considered a proven fact.

            Similarly, it is a proven fact that Israel used Egyptian Jews to bomb American and British facilities in Egypt.

            All this while the Israelis were openly boasting of the ingathering they were carrying out.

            To turn round and accuse these badly damaged societies of being antisemitic and seeking to get rid of the Jews, Nazi style, is a blood-libel.

            Disgusting, false, and used as an excuse to murder members of another group.

            Very much more of a blood libel than the allegation that Israel harvested the organs of Palestinians – which in any case was true!

          • Yishai_Kohen

            In your dreams. I suppose the pogroms there were also “carried out by the Zionists”- dressed up as Arabs.

            As to the Lavon Affair, that was established 50 years ago that it was a rogue operation that led to resignations and more.

            Face facts: Arabs then murdered. Arabs now murder.

            They and their societies pay the price.

          • Nick

            The Iraqi Jews all believed that they’d been cheated and bombed out of their property and ethnically cleansed by the Zionists.

            This was the song which the Iraqi Jews used to sing. Nothing the rulers of Israel could do quelled the bitterness which the newcomers nurtured against them. They were lectured, in their transit camps, by teams of Zionist educators. But, long after they left the camps, they continued to sing that song, even at weddings and festive occasions. It remained popular throughout the fifties. (Hirst p288 The Gun and the Olive Branch)

            What did you do, Bengurion?

            You smuggled in all of us!

            Because of the past, we waived our citizenship

            And came to Israel.

            Would that we had come riding on a donkey and we

            Hadn’t arrived here yet!

            Woe, what a black hour it was!

            To hell with the plane that brought us here!

          • Yishai_Kohen

            The Iraqi Jews endured Arab pogroms and riots of all types. They fled.

            Now they are happily living in their land; the land of Israel.

            They won’t be dhimmi again. None of us will be.

          • Nick

            The Iraqi Jews didn’t flee – they were ingathered by the Zionists on the basis of lies (and in case of reluctance, bombs were used – as we know happened in Baghdad Cairo and Alexandria).

            In other words, they were ethnically cleansed – by you!

            Furthermore, Mizrahi continue to feel bitterly humiliated in Israel:

            This was in 2013:

            … I’m hanging out with two couple friends of mine. They are properly leftists, intelligent, well-educated. The conversation flows until we start discussing politics. We talk about Tommy Lapid. I say something about him being a racist and one of my friends responds: “So what, I am a racist as well.” I ask what she means by that, she answers:

            “I don’t have any Mizrahi friends.”

            I try to throw her a rope. “Well you don’t have to like Mizrahi music but what do you mean you don’t have any Mizrahi friends?” I ask.

            “No,” she insists, “Mizrahi people have no culture – it’s a primitive and chauvinistic culture.”

            I check again to make sure I heard her right.”You know I am Mizrahi, right?”

            “You’re not really Mizrahi” she retorts, writing me off in a split second. I am stunned into silence. The others are silent as well. Quickly I mumble that I have to get going. Later, I get angry with myself. (Translated from Hebrew)

          • Yishai_Kohen

            The Iraqi Jews fled- after being persecuted by the Arabs. And it was nothing new. Jews in Iraq suffered greatly under Daud Pasha (1817-1831), and many, such as David Sassoon fled to Bombay, Rangoon, and elsewhere.

            Iraq, as you surely know, was close to Nazi Germany, and in fact, in 1941, there were huge anti-Jewish riots, with 175 Jews killed and 1,000 injured. Looting of Jewish property took place and 900 Jewish homes were destroyed:


            Sami Michael, a witness to the Farhud, testified: “Antisemite propaganda was broadcast routinely by the local radio and Radio Berlin in Arabic. Various anti-Jewish slogans were written on walls on the way to school, such as “Hitler was killing the Jewish germs”. Shops owned by Muslims had ‘Muslim’ written on them, so they would not be damaged in the case of anti-Jewish riots.”

            Shalom Darwish, the secretary of the Jewish community in Baghdad, testified that several days before the Farhud, the homes of Jews were marked with a red palm print (“Hamsa”), by al-Futuwa youth.

            Two days before the Farhud, Yunis al-Sabawi, a government minister that proclaimed himself the governor of Baghdad, summoned Rabbi Sasson Khaduri, the community leader, and recommended to him that Jews stay in their homes for the next three days as a protective measure. An investigative committee later found that Yunis had the intent of killing the Jews, although his rule of Baghdad lasted only a few hours, to be seized by a public security committee.

            Years later, Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Sa’id said: “The Jews have always been a source of evil and harm to Iraq. They are spies. They have sold their property in Iraq, they have no land among us that they can cultivate. How therefore can they live? What will they do if they stay in Iraq? No, no my friend, it is better for us to be rid of them as long as we are able to do so”.

            And in 1948, Shafiq Ades (one of the most important anti-Zionist Jewish businessmen in the country) was arrested and executed for allegedly selling goods to Israel- which of course he didn’t, because he opposed Zionism.

            On August 28, 1948, Jews were forbidden to engage in banking or foreign currency transactions,

            In September 1948, Jews were dismissed from the railways, the post office, the telegraph department and the Finance Ministry on the ground that they were suspected of “sabotage and treason,”

            On October 8, 1948, the issuance of export and import licenses to Jewish merchants was forbidden,

            On October 19, 1948, the discharge of all Jewish officials and workers from all governmental departments was ordered,

            In October, the Egyptian paper, El-Ahram, estimated that as a result of arrests, trials and sequestation of property, the Iraqi treasury collected some 20 million dinars or the equivalent of 80 million U.S. dollars,

            On December 2, 1948, the Iraq government suggested to oil companies operating in Iraq, that no Jewish employees be accepted.

            But never let actual facts get in the way.

            PS In Israel today, there are Jews of all backgrounds in the gamut of positions. Iraqi Jews can be found in senior positions in government and political parties, the army, industry, academia, and so on. If you want names and positions, just ask.

          • Nick

            So Iraqi Jews suffered in WW2 in the aftermath of a very brief Nazi coup.

            Less Jews died (at the hands of individual criminals who would almost certainly have been punished if caught) than the Haganah had murdered the year before in Haifa. An action that really was planned and carried out in order to help the Nazis, from the people who believed in the same ethnic nationalism and murder of the untermensch.

            What happened when you googled for “51 Documents: Zionist resistance to the Nazis” – did you find what you expected?

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Try again: It wasn’t just then. It was endemic to Iraq- which is why there were also the Farhud:


            As to the Hagannah, “hagganah” means “defense”, and it was ONLY established AFTER the Arab pogroms of 1920.

            The Arabs here ACTIVELY supported Hitler. The Arabs in Iraq ACTIVELY supported Hitler. I’m not surprised that you defend both.

          • Nick

            Iraq was the Jewish homeland, and had been uniquely so for the previous 1700 years. (Zionists now claim that vast areas belonged to Jews, who accounted for 1/3rd of Baghdad).

            The nationalist coup failed – very likely because, although it had modern German aircraft and some other German support, the Nazis weren’t involved. For all we know the usurpers went punished – but the revived Iraqi state condemned to death eight Farhud assailants, including army officers and police – compare that with the total inaction of the Israeli state against much bigger massacres of Palestinians – including the people of Deir Yassin, who were looking forwards to living in the new Israel (despite being outside the partition line, living in the Arab portion!).

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Israel ALWAYS was the Jewish homeland. Jews everywhere- including in Iraq, prayed 3 times every day to return to the land of Israel.

            And yes, Jews in Iraq- like in Egypt and elsewhere DID own a lot of assets- which were stolen.

            Bottom line is that while the Arabs will obviously have to compensate the Jews for their grand-theft,for Jews, Israel is our homeland.

          • Nick

            There were virtually no Jews in Israel for a 1000 years.

            They’d 99.5% or more converted to Christianity, perhaps because the Jerusalem Talmud was so oppressive. Later, most of them converted to Islam.

            Only in Iraq and other places around the Middle East, under the Babylon Talmud, did Judaism flourish.

            So, what did the Zionists do? Why, they ethnically cleansed all of those Middle Eastern Jews and entirely stamped out their culture!

          • Yishai_Kohen

            Israel has a plurality of world Jewry now, and within a generation it will be an outright majority.

            Judaism is Zionism. It is mentioned countless times in the Bible, we prayed for it 3 times a day, every day- plus every time we eat.

            And here we are- in OUR land.

            Allahu akbar!

          • Nick

            You seem to want the Jews blamed for torturing Palestinian children, as you do all day and every day.

            How about the stolen picture that Israel air-brushed and presented as being from the gun-camera of the jet attacking the USS Liberty?

            Do you want the Jews blamed for that as well?

            Have the Jews not suffered enough from false accusations for 2000 years?

          • Yishai_Kohen

            The only ones torturing Arab children are Arabs. They use them as human shields and as combatants.

            A culture of death.

            As to the Liberty, again, facts are facts. You have none; just lies. I proved my point from the NSA, from the CIA, from the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, and other sources.

            You just make baseless accusations.

          • Nick

            Too bad that the IDF (Rachel Naidek Ashkenazi, Spokesperson of the Ministry of Defense) has been forced to admit that the picture you claimed was from your gun camera (and is used on the front cover of your hasbara manual on the USS Liberty, AJ Cristol’s book) was the property of the US Navy!

            And has been air-brushed to cover up the details, including the unfortunate tug-boat in the foreground!

            Then you accuse others of lying and cheating!

            In other cases, like the torturing of Palestinian children, your own right-wing Jerusalem Post admits what you’re doing.

          • Nick

            Why would we believe what you claim about what the Jews wanted for 2000 years?

            Especially when they plainly didn’t want to go back to Israel? The Three Oaths forbade them to do so.

            Meanwhile, Iets get to the bottom of the stolen picture that the Israel government itself had air-brushed and used as evidence that the USS Liberty was not flying the US flag.

            How did this happen, and where are the real gun-camera pictures?

            Why can we still not see the photographs of the Deir Yassin massacre, 65 years after the event?

            Are you going to come clean about the disgusting history of ZIonism in Israel and Iraq or will you lie and deny and cover-up?

          • Nick

            The Arabs in Iraq who attacked the Jews were punished for it. Easy enough to do when they were a small minority (just one Palestine that we know of, a collaborator imposed on the Palestinians by the Zionists themselves in 1920).

            Whereas three times more Jews were killed by the Haganah by an attack, in war-time, on a British ship.

            The Yishuv covered up that mass-murder of Jews – and the perpetrator was so proud that he presently published his memoir of pro-Nazi terrorism.

            So, which of these communities was fighting for the Nazis?

          • Yishai_Kohen

            The Arabs in Iraq who attacked the Jews weren’t punished for it, and the Arabs here paid the price for their aggression.

          • Nick

            It must be an Israeli thing to lie and cheat and blame others for your racism.

            The attackers of the Farhud were indeed prosecuted and 8 condemned to death.

            Compare that with the perpetrators of the Deir Yassin massacre, glorified as heroes and one becoming Prime Minister of Israel!

            And Deir Yassin was one of some 530 pogroms, none of them ever punished! With many more to come, Sharon a particular villain, also became Prime Minister.

            Gee, you must be proud of yourselves!

          • Nick

            Never mind the Farhud, which, as I said, was the chaos of war and was punished. Unlike the much bigger Haganah killings of Jews which went unpunished.

            You cannot escape the fact that, some 9 years later, the Zionists wanted the Jews to flee and threw bombs at them.

            Did the Zionist thugs incite antisemitsm and have some success? Maybe – but it was Iraqis generally and Iraqi Jews in particular who were made to suffer by your friends!

          • Yishai_Kohen

            I won’t forget about the Farhud. Just because it’s inconvenient for you doesn’t mean that you can disregard it- or all of the anti-Jewish (not anti-Zionist specifically) legislation there.

            The only ones who attacked the Jews were the Arabs.

          • Nick

            Not even your own right-wing Israeli historians any more deny that you attacked the Palestinians.

            In fact, you went there, long before Hitler, for the very purpose of attacking the Palestinians!

            I hope you don’t expect any sympathy when you lose and demand entry back to countries you’ve so viciously defamed so often!

          • Nick

            Must be an Israeli thing to lie and deny over all the attacks they’ve carried out on the innocent – and the complete impunity they insist on, making many of the murderers into their Prime Ministers.

          • Walk Tall Hang Loose

            They are not MY liberal democracies. The only ones I introduced were Britain, Belgium and South Africa, where there is some comparison with the situation in Israel.